Message Board Thread - "insulated vessels"

Back to Threads | Back to Forums

TitleByPosted On
insulated vessels Steve1120 9/8/2004
I have an insulated reactor that I would like to get a thermal image of to detect hot spots and general temperature profile in particular sections of the reactor. The reactor doesn't currently have enough thermocouples to adequately show this type of information. Is there technology out there that will allow us to do this?
 
Re:insulated vessels Gary Orlove 9/8/2004
No problem, there are many cameras out there that will do this. Go to http://www.flirthermography.com/english/Default.asp to see a variety of models.

Gary Orlove
Infrared Training Center
 
Re:insulated vessels Steve1120 9/8/2004
Thanks, but just wanted to re-iterate the fact that the reactor is "completely" insulated.
What camera would you recommend and can it be rented?

Thanks,

Steve
 
Re:insulated vessels JKEngineer 9/9/2004
Your question raises other questions before it can be answered.

These include:
How much insulation is on the reactor - thickness and R factor, for example.
Is the insulation (believed to be) in good shape?
Is it (believed to be) uniform?
What temperature is the reactor internally?
What are the ambient conditions?
What level of information about the reactor itself is of interest? That is, are you interested in 1 degree resolution or 100 degree resolution of the reactor conditions.
What size of anomaly at the reactor is of interest? That is, a 1 inch spot on a 10 foot reactor or a 10 inch spot? (2.5 cm or 25cm on 3m, if you are not in the US ;-) )

All of these address the reactor and the heat transfer from the reactor to the surface of the insulation. They are questions that need to be addressed in order to describe the sensitivity of the readings you need on the surface. For example, a lightly insulated reactor with a high temperature internally, might give a >1 degree surface variation over an anomaly of <10 degrees. A heavily insulated, relatively cool reactor might give <0.1 degree variation over a >100 degree anomaly (these numbers are made up, not meant to be realistic). So you have to address them before you decide what level of temperature variation on the surface is important to you and what level you wish to detect. Conversely, you have to address them in order to correctly interpret any readings on the surface as indicative of a reactor level value.

Once you address all that, you can then say what the characteristics of the camera have to be. You also then have to address the surface nature of the insulation in terms of its emissivity and how that affects the camera's utility.

If you wish, I would be glad to discuss this further with you. I can provide the heat transfer analysis that I describe above. I have done similar analyses in the past. I am presenting one at this years Inframation.

Jack
Jack M. Kleinfeld, P.E.
Kleinfeld Technical Services, Inc.
Infrared Thermography, Finite Element Analysis, Process Engineering

Bronx, NY 10463

718-884-6644
866-884-6644 toll free
212-214-0919 fax and voice mail

JKEngineer@aol.com or JKEngineer@KleinfeldTechnical.com
come see what we can do for you: http://www.KleinfeldTechnical.com
 
Re:insulated vessels Gary Orlove 9/10/2004
Based on the conditions you describe, I would take a look at a P60 series camera, both because of it's spatial resolution and sensitivity. If based on a heat transfer analysis you find that you require extreme sensitivity, then you might want to consider a cryogenically cooled detector camera such an SC3000, Merlin, or Phoenix.

And yes, some of these cameras can be rented. See http://www.infraredcamerarentals.com/

Gary Orlove
Infrared Training Center
 
Re:insulated vessels APEX 9/11/2004
Hi Steve;

Is this reactor a catalyst filled vessal such as a hydrotreater or cracker? Are you looking for hot spots associated with coking or fusing of the catalyst bed? I am a level III thermographer who worked for a major catalyst handling company for several years as project manager. I would be interested in being kept up to date on how you make out.
I would guess that based on the emmissivity of the cladding and insulation thickness surrounding the vessel that if you are looking for hot spots and channelling of feedstock through the bed you may not have much luck using IR. There will also be heat radiating from other componants in the unit that will likely affect thermal patterns from the vessal in question.
Please contact me so we can discuss

info@apexinfrared.com

www.apexinfrared.com

Regards;
Bill Arnott
Level III Certified Infrared Thermographer
APEX Infrared

 
Re:insulated vessels JKEngineer 9/11/2004
I have to disagree with Gary's comments about which cameras to look at. You are not ready to look at cameras because you have not fully described what the camera needs to do.

The cameras that Gary cites may be perfectly acceptable, I am not disagreeing with their capabilities or quality. However, depending on your desires and the nature of the system you want to examine, you could find that a camera with +/- 0.5C sensitivity is adequate or that one with +/- 0.02C sensitivity is inadequate. In other words, you could get by with a very low cost camera or you could find that the best and most expensive commercial cameras out there are not adequate to the task.

You really do need to go through the analysis that I described in my previous posting.

If you want help with it, I would be glad to become involved, contact me.

The image below is from an FEA analysis presented at Inframation 2002. It is the calcualted temperature of the surface of a concrete slab with hidden delaminations under external heating. It's a different problem than yours, but one which demonstrates the capability I am discussing.

Jack
Jack M. Kleinfeld, P.E.
Kleinfeld Technical Services, Inc.
Infrared Thermography, Finite Element Analysis, Process Engineering

Bronx, NY 10463

718-884-6644
866-884-6644 toll free
212-214-0919 fax and voice mail

JKEngineer@aol.com or JKEngineer@KleinfeldTechnical.com
come see what we can do for you: http://www.KleinfeldTechnical.com
 


  • Back to Threads
  • Back to Forums

     

  •   Copyright © FLIR Systems, Inc 2012