Message Board Thread - "A camera that does can see through MCC doors?"

Title	By	Posted On
A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	wyoir	3/2/2006
Does any know of a camera on the market that can take IR images without opening any enclosure? I ask because my new company had just hired someone to do our other plant locations that says they can do this. I am a level 2 and have a rented P65 on my desk....Thanks
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	Hal	3/2/2006
As a Degreed Engineer with only Level I training, I guess I get to be the first to respond. IR cameras do not see through MCC doors(unless installed with a window). I have observed that many MCC disconnects when turned off or under no/low load show lower temperatures. I also have identified acute overheating situations in some panels before opening the doors. To identify the majority of overheating problems the doors will need to be open.
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	micjk	3/3/2006
Hal is right, IR cameras do not "see through" MCC cabinets. You need an "IR" window in order to look into the cabinets without opening them. They will not work in all cases though due to the internal configuration of some cabinets ie obstructions, limited field of view. Another alternative is utilizing airborne ultrasonic detection to listen around door seems for arcing and tracking, then opening the cabinet and confirming with IR. Kind regards,
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	Tony Holliday (HAWK IR)	3/3/2006
Hello, Hawk IR are the largest manufacturer of IR Sightglasses (sometimes, known as IR windows) & Ports. The Hawk IR Sightglasses have been extensively tested, including extremely high level arc-flash testing, ensuring your maximum safety. We can help you overcome this problem. Best regards, Tony Holliday Hawk IR International Ltd. TOLL FREE. 1-877-4-HAWKIR Web. http://www.hawk-ir.com/ Email. tony.holliday@hawk-ir.com
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	wyoir	3/6/2006
Thanks for all the replys. I myself know that IR cameras can not see through doors. This is the point I been trying to make with my company. They are paying some one good money to do this and its not the first time. In the mean time I have been showing what I can do with camera and hoping that they will take that step and buy one for our area. Your feed back will help me. Bill
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	mofais	3/10/2006
Dear wyoir The main reason direct-scanning doesn't work for MCC panel is because the radiation from the MCC sub-components is totally blocked by the panel. The only way is to install infrared(IR) windows on the panel. The IR windows is made of special material (germanium-based) that allows the radiation from the sub-components to transmit through it (transmission up to 97%, loses approx 3%). By having compensation factor for the loses, we can have the apparent temperature of the sub-components inside the MCC. I have experience installing these IR windows (46 units) in one of the Electrical Substation(33/11kV) in Petronas Ammonia Gas Plant in Malaysia. Mr Tony (HAWK IR) has guided me for the installation demo. Hope this will help Farid Ismail farid@ifk.com.my
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	Ian S	3/10/2006
Good Afternoon (this side of the world South Africa) I concur with all my fellow IR mates that there is no way to see through panels. The only thing to be seen is the heat inside transfering through the paneldoor. This might help to notice a SERIOUSLY bad problem inside but not your common faults usually found inside. Here in SA there are a number of guys "selling" this load of false info and make big bucks of "un-informed" companies. Here we take these guys to court because they harm our technologies trusworthines (forgive my spelling). Well - that's my side of the story.
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	Dirk	3/21/2006
Seeing through things implies Terahertz waves, which is a nice subject for another thread. My question is (being a non English speaker): What does MCC mean. Can anyone enlighten me ? Thanx, Dirk
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	JKEngineer	3/21/2006
MCC = Motor Control Center Jack Jack M. Kleinfeld, P.E. Kleinfeld Technical Services, Inc. Infrared Thermography, Finite Element Analysis, Process Engineering Bronx, NY 10463 718-884-6644 866-884-6644 toll free 212-214-0919 fax and voice mail Skype: JKEngineer JKEngineer@aol.com or JKEngineer@KleinfeldTechnical.com come see what we can do for you: http://www.KleinfeldTechnical.com
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	jdemonte	3/31/2006
There is a paper written by myself and another Level 3 thermal infrared individual that deals with this common misconception. You can find it in the Inframation 2005 proceedings from the ITC store. We have determined that it is NOT possible to "see" most moderate to severe electrical issues without IR windows or opening the cabinet doors AND the actual dead-front cover.
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	VINNY	6/13/2006
ASK THEM FOR A DEMONSTRATION AND MAKE A PROBLEM BY USING A HEAT GUN TO HEAT UP AN ITEM THEN CLOSE THE DOOR. I AGREE THE ONLY THING IT WILL SHOW IS IF THE CABINET IS OVERHEATED.
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	Manuel	6/19/2006
Hi wyoir about "camera on the market that can take IR images without opening any enclosure?" well, yes, all of them, but will depends if you want to measure the enclose surface temperature. if you want to see inside and looking for problem will be an 'indirect inspection' but will need lot of experience and does not applied to all equipment, just for some of them. here is a sample of indirect inspection: regards roberto.cruz@thermoimagen.com
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	mofais	8/30/2006
Dear All HS on Cable Compartment of a 11kV VCB
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	Bob Berry	8/30/2006
Mofais, if I found a problem like that I would be leaving the room immediately and calling for an immediate shutdown. Has this been repaired and if so what was the promlem? Also if you have photos of the problem when it was opened it would be great if you posted them here. I assume you are not suggesting this is done as a common practice, as we all know that only items near failure can be detected in this way. I have attached some images of a problem that could only be detected with the cover open.
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	jvoitl	8/30/2006
I came upon this circuit breaker earlier this month. I think that due to both the clarity and the thinness of the plastic shield covering it, it's a perfect example of the inability of IR to "see through" panel doors. In this instance the door itself was open and the only thing between the camera and the hot spot was the plastic. While scanning the outside of panels may show extreme problems, openning everything up is the only way to do a thorough electrical scan.
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	Greg S.	9/8/2006
Hi all: I have a paper on this subject here... http://www.stocktoninfrared.com/PUBLISHED/ It is the second paper (April 2006). Greg S.
Quote Message and Reply
Re:A camera that does can see through MCC doors?	Edd Hindmarsh	9/9/2006
The only people that I have met who say they know about cameras which can see through panel doors, and have seen proof of them doing so have been a few South Africans. None of these people were thermographers, and none of them owned a camera. I agree, these people do more harm than good to the rest of us.
Quote Message and Reply